Yves
Just finished and (finaly, at last !) installed this on 31 December 2018.
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The alternative to getting old is not interesting.
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Mike Westbrook
Beautiful work ! A labor of love I'm sure about how many hours would you guess ?
Facebook (South mountain metal works)
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anvil
Beautiful work! Are your rings forge welded?
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Galt's Glutch Forge
Excellent. Thank you for posting such fine work. Your craftmanship helps inspire others. I know it inspires me. Love to see the consistency in your work.
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Yves
Mike Westbrook wrote:
Beautiful work ! A labor of love I'm sure about how many hours would you guess ?


I put in more or less 175 hours. And yes it was a labor of love.

I am happy that the work pleases you.
The alternative to getting old is not interesting.
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Yves
anvil wrote:
Beautiful work! Are your rings forge welded?


I am glad that the work pleases you.

No, the rings were not welded.

For one thing it was not necessary. The strenght comes from the riveting of the flats together. The collaring of the rings to the structure is a reinforcement.

For another, I am not that good. The rings had to be 4-5/16" Ø. I do not think that I would be able to forge weld so accurately 63 rings. I could not charge for the time involved in such an operation that as I mentioned, was not necessary.

To elaborate on this : given the precision necessary in this context, I do not see how I could calculate precisely the amount of material I would use to upset the material.

The rings being forged out of a flat 1/8"x3/8" it would be difficult to just upset such small material, at least for me. Even more difficult to upset precisely.

And then gain, even if could find the right lenght to cut, and  if I could easily upset the flats, I am not sure that I could forge weld at the necessary diameter all 63 rings. Once a ring is welded, if it is too small, it could be forged to the  proper dimension but not without a modification of the appearance of the steel. And if it is too large … forget it. Any correction I could bring to the diameter would look lik a sore thumb. There was no wigling around the 4-5/16" Ø.

I must confess I thought about forge welding the rings but I backed down.

To sum up : since it was not necessary to forge weld the rings, it would have been an error to do so and charge the client for the time involved.

The alternative to getting old is not interesting.
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Marc
Very nice work Yves. 
Don't apologise for electric welding rather than forge welding. it would be absurd to do this 63 times for the sake of ... (?)
As long as your rings are not bent cold with a machine, you are on a winner. 

if you ever want to do this again, try a grill with only rings without the bars, and short diagonal spikes pointing in the void at 45.  
Much that passes as idealism, is disguised hatred or disguised love of power. Bertrand Russell
 
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Yves
Marc wrote:
Very nice work Yves. 
Don't apologise for electric welding rather than forge welding. it would be absurd to do this 63 times for the sake of ... (?)
As long as your rings are not bent cold with a machine, you are on a winner. 

if you ever want to do this again, try a grill with only rings without the bars, and short diagonal spikes pointing in the void at 45.  


I thank you for the compliment.

The rings were bent hot around a jig I made and adjusted hot to a square of 4-5/16" sides

I tacked the rings in place (1 or 2 tacks). Then, I collared the rings to the structure where there were no tacks. I then grinded the tacks. If not, the collars would have been too short encompassing the mass of the tacks. The grinding made for the collars to fit tight. See the pic below.
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Let me add that if I would have welded parts together I would not apologize. I already am not a traditional blacksmith anyway since I work alone and I am amongst those who believe that blacksmiths have always used the best tools for the job. It has also come to my attention reading here and there that Edgar Brandt , Samuel Yelin and the likes of Mr. Whitaker have used the help of Mr, Miller …

To conclude, the gril is riveted together, collared together but not welded together. There was no need to, The collars' ends meet and the line where they meet is hidden by a collar.

Would you have a drawing or a picture of what you had in mind that you want me to try ? Did you do something lke that?
The alternative to getting old is not interesting.
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Norseman C.B.
Very nice piece of work !!.................[cool]
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Grandadz Forge
Amazing and masterful work
If ya thunk it, now ya gotta make it- Grandadz Forge Blacksmithing
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Yves
Norseman C.B.,

Grandadz Forge,

I thank you for your kind comments.
The alternative to getting old is not interesting.
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Jacob Elmslie
making stuff like this is why I want to get into metal work! thank you for sharing
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Grandadz Forge
Jacob Elmslie wrote:
making stuff like this is why I want to get into metal work! thank you for sharing

Do it! Do it now! Godspeed
If ya thunk it, now ya gotta make it- Grandadz Forge Blacksmithing
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Yves
Jacob Elmslie wrote:
making stuff like this is why I want to get into metal work! thank you for sharing


Like the man said, "Do it now !"

The forging of the parts of this grille is simple : the rings (63 of them) were first bent hot around a jig and then adjusted with hammer and anvil to the precise dimensions ; the collars were first forged half round on a swage block from 1/4" square cold rolled bars (40 feet of them for 150 collars) and then bent in a U shape and finaly wrapped with torches to avoid flats to be forged on the front part of the collars ; rivets, 120 of them but still only riveting.

The only real difficulty was the forging of the U shapes in the horizontal bars so that they would precisely cross the vertical bars to produce 4-5/16" squares to receive the rings. 

Just go ahead, dream it, draw it and forge it. It does not have to be that big a grille. The following pics show the grils I forged for the doors of my smithy.The large ones are for the storage area and the second pic is of the entrance to my forge. Again, simple work.

Good luck and again, like the man said …

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The alternative to getting old is not interesting.
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Jacob Elmslie
I have had successes and setbacks but am working harder than ever getting everything set up, Its been the dream for over 15 years now. Collecting tools and having my anvil by my bed side in college. Thanks for the inspirations!
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anvil
Yves, first, I was a student of Francis Whitaker for a about 5 years. I did not work for him on a daily basis. He invited me to work on jobs a few times a year, and invited me to be a part of workshops done at other places.

And again, this is not a critique as your grill is a fine example of forgework.

I have no problem using the tools I choose, power or hand. Nor did Whitaker. However I'll add this caution. Tools tend to create certain effects. An experienced smith can minimize this and use these tools to save time and they will not affect his "esthetic". A less experienced Smith may save time but will end up with a more fabricated looking product..

Another paraphrase from Francis.
"Every job has a learning curve, and I never charge for my learning time."

This applies to your rings. Heres some pointers. 
When forgewelding, you do not ever add material to your known length for the scarf. Always cut your lengths to finished lengths, then scarf, which shortens your length, and forge weld back to the original cross section. Now you are back to your original dimension and forgewelded. If you make two light counterpunch Mark's on each end before scarfing then these become your reference as to when you aforgeweld. Say make these Mark's 2"  back. Thus when forgeweld, when you measure 4", you are right on. Experience here gives you the confidence to know you can forge weld these 63 rings to dimension.

This brings me back to the Francis quote above. If you had chosen to forge weld those rings, and realize you are paying for your own education, not your client, they still would have granted you the commission, and without a doubt, after forgewelding 63 rings, you would absolutely be able to forgeweld to dimension. Also you would know the difference in  tacking and grinding them with associated tool wear, grinder disk consumables, and electricity  and forgewelding and rounding your rings.

What you may find is the time/material difference is negligible. This gives you the option, on another bid, to sell "forged" at a bit of a higher price vs forged and fabricated. And they are already knocking on your door due to your "blacksmithed esthetics".

At the very least, you will be able to forgeweld to dimension with confidence.

I have more input on your collars as well, but this is long enough.
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Yves
Anvil,

I am looking for a better word than gratefull … Your comments are, should be the reason why we post these things. Congratulations like the compliment you paid my grill are, of course, fine and welcome. Remarks, comments, pointers like the ones you took time to write down and pass on are true bonuses for the work we have done.

What I know about blaksmithing, I learned by myself with books about blacksmithing and about the history of wrought ironwork, magazines (the ones from ABANA, Hephaistos), following some blacksmiths in their videos, films like the ones on Francis Whitaker or Alfred Habermann, Smeden in Duisland all of which I watch again and again, reading posts in forums like this one. So your input is highly valued by me.

About forge welding
Every day I forge ( not today, too cold, hovering around 0 ºF), I weld something : for example, if I have a few lenghts of 1/4x1/2x10 like the other day, I'll weld them together and change their scrap status to a bar status … Or I'll weld chain links. Whatever. However, as you can see, lenght, precise lenght was never a target. Never thought of it. Even when forging the rings for the gril, I did not even try to weld them. Your pointers are an encouragement to do so. I will start with rings  and one thing I never tried was forge welding a frame (right angle weld) to fit a painting in. My wife is a painter and some of her paintings (her urban spaces) could well be framed in metal.

About the learning curve
Let's face it, I was scared. I did  not want to even try. As I said in a previous post, the one you are refering to in you comments, I was sure that I could not have come up with 63 perfectly dimensioned rings. And that came about eventhough my forge welding is not so bad (handles on rings for tripods (T welds), lenghts of flat, square or round bars, etc.) If it would have come to my mind that I could have done it after a while and thus consider the time then spent as a learning curve  (much like the time spent in designing this project or others, this time where you live with the project, dream about it and never event think of charging the client for it) I would have gone ahead and done it. I did not. This was not out of economic considerations but out of an evaluation of my proficiency.

When I wrote :

"To sum up : since it was not necessary to forge weld the rings, it would have been an error to do so and charge the client for the time involved."

I ment that the rings could be installed without being welded, the seam not being apparent, the esthetics of the gril not being impaired. Even if I could have forge welded the rings, it was not necessary to do so and thus not to have been done and charge (rightfully) the client for the work.

Things are rather slow presently and I have some time available to practice. And as I wrote above, I feel encouraged to work on forge welding to lenght especialy rings and frames where you cannot cut the end off if it is too long …

About the tacking & grinding

As I was doing it I thought it was crazy : you add metal to the metal you have and then you remove the metal you just added to come back to the metal you have. And it was not necessary.

What I think happened is that I somehow made for myself the obligation of setting all the rings in the grill at the same time. I could have bought small "C" clamps to hold the rings flush with the bars and set the collars on one ring at a time (which is what happened anyway). It was not necessary to insert all the rings in the gril. This decision probably came about because I wanted to see the thing finished, done. And I had the welding machine …

About the collars

If you have the time, please come back to me (to us) with your input on the collars.

The one thing I would do differently would be to take the time (to set the small swage block I used to forge the collars half round in a stand (wooden block with handles ?) and then heat the collars in the forge and lay them on the swage block to wrap them. There would not be any danger for flats to appear. And I would then avoid using torches which is a problem for me as space being at a high premium, the use of torches means a lenghty (it seems like that) set up and then a take down. I hate that.

While I am at it, I could forge a bottom swage for my hardy hole (would mild steel do the job?).

To close

Again, I thank you and if and when you have the time, do come back on the collars. It will help me and others I am sure.
The alternative to getting old is not interesting.
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anvil
Thanks for the kind words.  I e had many people pass on great info. Just paying it forward.

I'll do you a collar how to in a bit. I'd like to wait a bit as I'm setting up a new shop and will do a video. 

I think I have pics here of some fire screens with forge welded to dimension corners. Heres one in case I dont. Click image for larger version - Name: 2015-11-30 14.02.37.jpg, Views: 4, Size: 90.51 KB Click image for larger version - Name: 2015-11-30 14.03.16.jpg, Views: 4, Size: 323.77 KB Click image for larger version - Name: 2015-11-30 14.03.24.jpg, Views: 4, Size: 218.63 KB Click image for larger version - Name: 2017-08-14 08.58.58_16.jpg, Views: 4, Size: 151.18 KB
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Yves
[QUOTE username=anvil userid=4218087 postid=1307584556]

This applies to your rings. Heres some pointers. 
When forgewelding, you do not ever add material to your known length for the scarf. Always cut your lengths to finished lengths, then scarf, which shortens your length, and forge weld back to the original cross section. Now you are back to your original dimension and forgewelded. If you make two light counterpunch Mark's on each end before scarfing then these become your reference as to when you aforgeweld. Say make these Mark's 2"  back. Thus when forgeweld, when you measure 4", you are right on. Experience here gives you the confidence to know you can forge weld these 63 rings to dimension.

What you may find is the time/material difference is negligible.

Anvil,

I had some rings left over, those you think you need to make in case something goes wrong with one of them. It was cut to lenght (4-5/16"). I scarfed and welded the wring and things went as you have described. And it was quickly done.

Thanks for the encouregement. I learned something. Here are three pics :
  1. the welded ring at 4-5/16"
  2. one side of the ring
  3. the other side

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The alternative to getting old is not interesting.
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anvil
Excellent! Makes my day when I can add a bit to someone with good skill!
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