Marc
Looking for inspiration to make a small but different kind of gate, I came across this work from two Ukrainian Blacksmith. 
The section that I would like to follow is the central section, let's call it the chaotic section. 

The size of the gate I want to make is 32" wide, 47" high at the hinges side and 39" high at the latch side.

There is a lot of bending flat bar on the edge. Because it does not follow a strict square pattern, there is a bit of poetic license, but they are still 90 degree bends of rather heavy stock. I would probably use 2 1/4" or 2 1/2 x 3/16" or perhaps 2"x1/4" not too sure just now. Is there anyone that care to comment on the technique you would use to achieve the bends, particularly the corner one? 

[image]
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Adrian Pierce Rogers
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theengel
Maybe start with round, bend it, and flatten it?

I'm not even an amateur, and don't have a right to have an opinion, but without being able to zoom in on this, that's what my guess would be.


Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?
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jmccustomknives
I'm pretty sure a power hammer and swedges were involved.  But what do I know, everything I make is flat anyway.  lol.  Probably square stock, but I could see flat stock being done that way.  It's a cool gate. 

Rule #10;  "I can make that" translates to; "I'm to cheap to buy it new."

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Marc
A quick sketch of what I have in mind. 
All flat bar, most likely 50x6mm, including the two vertical at each side. Instead of making a frame, I have two verticals, and twist the point of contact 90 degrees.

The dogleg bend are going to be interesting. Will need to move a lot of steel from the inside out. The ends are fishtail and riveted. It's not going to be a light gate ... [smile] 

photo.jpg 
The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
Adrian Pierce Rogers
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anvil
I would use a minimum of 1/4" and most likely 3/8". You have a lot of steel there no matter what and need something to carry the weight. Also it will give you the needed material for the edge details you plan. Too light on the parent stock here and either you will have a very " upsetting experience" or the gate will turn out looking thin and wispy. Same for the two verticals. I'd start with a minimum of 3/8"x 1-(eighth,quarter,half)" and forge down to your drawing via figuring equal masses from transition to transition along the bar. You will need this mass to hang your gate on,,, and keep it from twisting every time the wind hits it or it is opened and closed.

From your photo, do notice there is a reason for the sheet metal backing. Notice the weight of the hinges. And finally, check out the upper right detail of the vertical and you will see his outer frame is not from thin material but from something greater than half". I'd guess 5/8" or 3/4" by ~3".

Also hinges to match. Thrust washers, oil impregnated bronze bushings, ball bearings etc

For your dogleg bends. A forge welded right angle(any angle) bend(s) to dimension is 5he easiest and quickest. I've posted here pics here showing one of my fireplace screens. The outer frame was done this way. Forge welded vs forged means the former is two pieces, the latter from one.

I don't have the ability to draw here, so will strongly recommend Francis Whitaker's book "The Blacksmiths Cookbook". His pics and description of both types of right angle bends is money in the bank. Much less very understandable.

Also I will dig up a better example of a more art Noveau application using a forge welded right angle bend(any angle) and post it tomorrow.

Nice project. Good luck.

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Marc
I have the book and did not see a description of forging a flat bar right angle on the edge. Yes for forge weld.
It's a good book but extremely annoying to read with those dog ears, the odd shape and the constant referral to cooking utensils in the first title. I was thinking in blacking all the titles out and leave the second title only ... [smile]
Will have another look for forging a flat bar the "wrong" way.  ... can you tell me the page number? 

As for the original photo, the back adds stiffness but the gate would work without it. Probably needs to keep privacy and stop the bullets from the local mafia.

My little gate is on top of some stairs and to stop kids and pets. Will have a kids proof latch on top. I agree that the two sides will need more than 6mm. 10mm sounds good ... what's that in imperiale? ... 3/8 ... 2"x3/8 ... or 1.5" x 3/8" ?  Hinges can be the usual 90 degree round bar and eye. This will keep the gate away from the wooden posts on each side and prevent guillotine effect on fingers.

PS
What is eighth quarter half?
The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
Adrian Pierce Rogers
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anvil
"3/8"x 1-(eighth,quarter,half)

3\8"x1-1\8, 3\8x1-1\4",3\8x1-1\2"

his book is packed. You should find it in the same area as forging a right angle bend as best i remember.

Sorry but i dont work in metric enough to do conversions.

25mm~1" if that helps. [wink]
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Marc
Aaaaaah ... took me a while of head scratching. 3/8"x1 1/8" or ... 3/8 x 1 1/4" or ... 3/8"x1 1/2"  ha ha, I thought it was some sort of relation between the thickness of the stock and the forging ... uuu aaa ... Ok I am over it. 
I can usually make conversions in my head. Not very accurate but enough for metalwork. Would probably be lost for a long while with smaller measurements using thousands and would need to convert to make sense of them. I find imperial very practical for rough measurements not smaller than 1/8 and especially good when using one to 12"
When I grew up, school was metric yet work was imperial. Any hardware store would only talk imperial and would ridicule any request in metric as amateurish and from an outsider. Imported cars changed that slowly. It is the other way now.

Not so with boats. Boats are measured in feet. That's it, no two ways about it. So much so that if someone tells me his boat is 9 meters, it means nothing to me. I have to scramble to put it in feet to have an idea of the dimensions. Not that 9 meters means nothing to me. I know if you tell me a shed is 9m by 5 sure. Not a boat ... funny how our mind works. 

Ideal boat dimensions are 28' by 10' and 3' draft ... I'll have to pay you guys a visit to get myself an Albin 28, they want too much money down under for the same boat. [smile]
The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
Adrian Pierce Rogers
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anvil
For what it's worth, when using my 6' metal folding ruler, I'm pretty good to a 1/64". If I built a hand forged railing to an eighth, well. It wouldn't leave my shop. When 4" on center and half inch square pickets, I can easily see 1/8th error. Pics to verify on request. [wink] With the above design, it makes no matter if you are within a 64th" or a half inch.

Here's some pics of forge welding flat strap. The frame has 3 forge welds, all to dimension. Each door has 3 as well. Two right angles each at the bottom and the non right angle at the top.

The top shows the fit of all three. My fit between the frame and doors is the thickness of a paper matchbook all around. This is plenty for expansion.

The third is the hinge detail. Not sure if you can see them in this reduced size pic, but there are brass washers between the pintle base and the barrel.

I do this because even at this weight, hinge wear happens and it's far easier to replace a brass washer than a hinge. Your gate is a bit heavier than this.

Thanks for the opportunity to show my work. And again, good luck on your project. Click image for larger version - Name: arched fire screen small.jpg, Views: 8, Size: 44.68 KB Click image for larger version - Name: arched fireplace small top detail.jpg, Views: 8, Size: 34.33 KB Click image for larger version - Name: arched fireplace small hinges.jpg, Views: 7, Size: 40.03 KB
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Marc
Yes, 1/64" is 0.4mm ... well I can "see" 1/2 mm if I measure with any tape, be it steel or wood, no problems. If I am making a railing I can see the difference between two balusters and it annoys me but usually I am the only that can see it.
If I decide to live with the mistake, I say that "If I walk past looking the other way I'll never notice"
The above design is something that has no relation with accuracy but with balance and harmony ... in an unusual way, let's call it 'organic'. 
That is the idea anyway. [smile]
Nice work there, where is it installed? 
Why don't you start a topic called "My journey" or "My metal work" or words to that effect and post all the photos you have of what you have done, or the one you want to show anyway, or the one you are working on I suppose. 
It can be very salutary. I find it so anyway.

I post most of the renovations work I do in a building forum even when I am not a builder. I am always surprised at how many people learn from my sometimes amateurish jobs, or from the journey and research that takes me to finish them. Once I built a sea wall and made a pontoon complete with ramp and anchoring platform, something that the engineer I use for building calculation refused to work out for me because it was unfamiliar territory. 
I dusted old physics books and a calculator that needs a manual to use and worked it out by myself, used a few contractors, excavator, auger, and a lot of metalwork. Still today people ask me about epoxy anchoring and how to paint galvanised steel and how to drive piles in a river and how to fit stay cables in a tidal river and thinks like that. 
It is all about the journey not the destination ... or so I tell myself anyway ... [smile]
The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.
Adrian Pierce Rogers
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anvil
Thanks for the compliment. I usually don't post a lot of pics. They seem to not be looked at much. So I tend to present examples as needed aling with far too many words of description.

I'm semi-retired after 35 or so years as a traditional smith. Then I sorta "drifted" into what I call multi-medium work.

Meaning I play at combining log, timber type framing and stone. I tried to get custom door guys to design doors around my iron, but they would rather it be the other way around,,, so I built a heavy hand milled door around a hardware design. That lead to a scribe fit log house to "iron" from the ground up. Then an incomplete (80%finished) 20'*40' dream shop from hand hauled and layed stone, iron and logs.

I'm doing my second major dream shop now done as above. Should be done a year from Christmas or the following spring.

And yes,,, it's the journey that matters.

This was one of a set of fireplace doors for a single fireplace with a set of doors in two rooms. Located Somewhere in the Rocky mountains.

Both were arched and the concept was"simple".

The log house builder, the owner and I all knew that "simple" was a euphemism for "no room for error".

I made the lintels as well. This is the steel interface between door frame and stone. It was out of 1/4"x4" strap.

They too were forge welded at the bottom to complete the frame.


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Hank Rearden
I'm always amazed at the creativity of some people. I love that design. I may have to copy it eventually for something I'm working on hope you don't mind. I think they say that's a form of flattery.
code[Maglio.gif]  Keep the fires burning hot!
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anvil
If that's meant for me, then thanks and go for it.

Remember, in my opinion,"simple" is the most difficult to pull off because there's no way to hide yer mistakes. [wink]
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Kiwi tussock
Me to! I really like the designs that some folks have for gates.
I must have a gate fetish 'cause I tend to look at them and indeed even have gone seeking gates out when I hear someone mention a different sort of designed gate.
The skill in making them is something else and for me, total admiration for the fella's (or sheila's) effort and learnt skills to enable the fabricator to make it in their workshop. Same for the designer.
I look forward to hopefully..... following the of the progress on this ones stages of development.
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