MassiveEffect
Well I have been smithing and and creating my own foundries for the past 5 years and the problem of my old designs was size. They just weren't big enough to do some of my crazy ideas. So I am thinking about doing what I have coined as a modular refractory. It would allow using the same chamber for high temp aluminum, gold, sliver, iron, steel, and any alloys that I wish to do. And then on the other side of it would allow me to temper or fold weld metal. I have gotten a huge piece of stainless duct 10g to be exact. Photos attached Click image for larger version - Name: DSC_0288.JPG, Views: 35, Size: 2.28 MB Click image for larger version - Name: DSC_0287.JPG, Views: 33, Size: 2.28 MB Click image for larger version - Name: DSC_0286.JPG, Views: 25, Size: 2.54 MB Click image for larger version - Name: DSC_0285.JPG, Views: 26, Size: 2.29 MB Click image for larger version - Name: DSC_0284.JPG, Views: 26, Size: 2.02 MB
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jmccustomknives
Let us know how it works.  The only problem I can think of is a large chamber requires a lot of fuel to heat.  There's a  huge difference between the temps that aluminum melts at and forge welding steel.  Another 500 deg to melt the steel.  Your using a blown burner?

Rule #10;  "I can make that" translates to; "I'm to cheap to buy it new."

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MassiveEffect
Blown waste oil buner is what I am thinking for the project
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jmccustomknives
That should throw some btu's.  Keep us posted on the project, I'm curious to see how it works.  What type of insulation are you planning to use?

Rule #10;  "I can make that" translates to; "I'm to cheap to buy it new."

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Skarzs the Cave Troll
MassiveEffect wrote:
Blown waste oil buner is what I am thinking for the project
Interesting.
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Metalmelt
Waste oil will put out a lot of heat. I've used a forced air drip burner for Cast Iron. I don't think it would have melted if I didn't have a well insulated furnace. 

There are a lot of burner designs on Alloy Avenue. It's a foundry site for amateurs.  http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/forum.php
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Hank Rearden
I think it's great your tackling this. I'll be following to see how you do. I would like to recast some broken iron parts. Mostly just to do it. I'm not going to have a chance anytime soon. The smitty has to get built first. I'm collecting building materials now.
code[Maglio.gif]  Keep the fires burning hot!
2020 ABANA Conference in Sarasota New York. June 3rd. through June 6th. Plan now!
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MassiveEffect
Yes I plan on finding a good store brand refractory if not I will do my own with exotics minerals and some different types of silca or maybe some obsidian. On the burn box I want to try a staggered mesh that will be dipped in a special refractory just to make sure all the oil is combusting befor ot hit the maim chamber going to setup so that they can easily be replaced if they start to burn out. Might even go with high psi atomization nozzles
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MassiveEffect
What high temp(3000f+) refractory mixes have you guys/gals had luck with
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NorrinRadd
If you haven't seen it yet this video might give you some ideas.


Good luck and looking forward to seeing what you make.
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jmccustomknives
I recently got some Uni-ram, some versions of this stuff is listed to be good to 3200F.  It's not an isulator though and doesn't like to stick to anything well but once it sets its like rock.  It's about like working with clay.  
The big problem is forge welding and smelting is very destructive to the refractory, so whatever you come up with make it easy to relign.

Rule #10;  "I can make that" translates to; "I'm to cheap to buy it new."

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MassiveEffect
Doing some research some ppl are using insulator blankets with refractory on the blanket made me wonder
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jmccustomknives
MassiveEffect wrote:
Doing some research some ppl are using insulator blankets with refractory on the blanket made me wonder

That's it.  My forge has 3 layers now.  1st layer from the outside is kao-wool.  Second level is soft firebrick (top and sides), bottom hard firebrick topped with castable refractory.  The borax ate through the castable and through the hard brick and formed a puddle in the bottom.  It eats kao-wool like water does cotton candy.

The insides are coated with the uni-ram.

A castable with a high bubble alumina content holds up best.


Rule #10;  "I can make that" translates to; "I'm to cheap to buy it new."

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MassiveEffect
Yea the refractory I am going to use is going to be a mix with outer layer being the blanket then about 2 inches of cashable. Need to find a cashable that is going to be chemical resistant
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jmccustomknives
Something with a high bubble alumina content.  Nothing going to hold up forever in that environment. 

Rule #10;  "I can make that" translates to; "I'm to cheap to buy it new."

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MassiveEffect
Now here is a question when it comes to the tube in between your firebox and your foundry/forge do you guy/gals line yours with a refractory? Trying to decide what size pipe I want to go with



As you can see I have my pick of many different sizes Click image for larger version - Name: DSC_0297.JPG, Views: 13, Size: 3.10 MB
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jmccustomknives
I guess metalmelt might be the one to know.  All my forges blow into the box directly.  But yeah, I'd think you'd want refractory in there.

Rule #10;  "I can make that" translates to; "I'm to cheap to buy it new."

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MassiveEffect
Yea probly going to get one of the big and med ones
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Metalmelt
Well, I try this again for the third time. My computer is acting up and I keep losing my post?? Is there an "Autosave" mode available for the forum posts? It's on some other forums I'm on, saves what you typed so you don't lose it.

Anyway... My propane burner is an exhaust pipe from auto zone, 1 1/2". For the drip burner I use 1 1/4" Iron pipe, not galvanized. And, for the Delevan siphon nozzle burner I use a 2" exhaust pipe. I couldn't get the siphon nozzle to work right and got mad and put it up for a year ... or five. My large furnace has a 9"bore. If your going to have a larger bore I don't think it would be necessary to use a larger pipe, Just more air and fuel. I use forced air for all my burners, the small propane burner has a small squirrel cage blower out of a computer type thing, tiny blower but puts out a lot of air. I have a centrifugal blower for the the larger burners. The burners enter the furnace at a tangent to swirl the heat around the crucible. Makes it a little hard to use as a forge, doesn't get direct heat.

Now Photobucket won't let me share my pictures. ?? Some of them are older ones and aren't on this computer. I guess I'll give up for now.



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Metalmelt
On the video NorrinRadd posted. That is quite a forge. I'm not sure why he has so much floor space inside unless he preheats a lot of metal or bakes Pizza on his off days. I'm really liking the ribbon burners, might be my next project. I could see sword smiths wanting a forge like that. I'm glad he shows removing the inlet pipes when he shuts down. I damaged my burner by leaving it in the furnace.

Anyone use a ribbon burner? I've heard of problems with them getting hot and burning back up inside the burner. Gets everything hot and starts popping and backfiring. I thought about putting some cooling tubes above the refractory to try to keep the heat down.
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MassiveEffect
Well as a start my first removeable set is going to be to be about as round as a propane tank. That is what my first crucible is going to be
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MassiveEffect
I have got a custom ss crucible that is just for precious metals
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Metalmelt
Hey it's working.

Small furnace with propane burner. I turn this on it's side to use as a forge. Can't seem to get to weld temp.


Delevan siphon burner.



Drip oil burner. 

Oil is in the tank on the ladder.

This is with too much air, most of the heat is going out the top, but it looks cool and keeps the neighbors guessing.

Keeping the heat inside works much better.
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MassiveEffect
Looks good injectors are so easy to use just got to find your butter zone for them
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MassiveEffect
I going to try my injection system with air pressure using a propane tank that is empty and a special nozzle that we designed when we first built our orginal blast furnace heater. We had to replace the cast iron plate that we used for the first winter of using it XD melted it right into the sand bed
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Hank Rearden
Hey Metalmelt,

As far as the neighbors go; I'd like to just keep them away for awhile. Not that I'm anti-social. I had one day I spent 50% of my time explaining to them what I was doing as they came by one at a time. Anyway, that's for a different thread. This thread is excellent.
code[Maglio.gif]  Keep the fires burning hot!
2020 ABANA Conference in Sarasota New York. June 3rd. through June 6th. Plan now!
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MassiveEffect
Hank Rearden wrote:
Hey Metalmelt,

As far as the neighbors go; I'd like to just keep them away for awhile. Not that I'm anti-social. I had one day I spent 50% of my time explaining to them what I was doing as they came by one at a time. Anyway, that's for a different thread. This thread is excellent.


That's were I am like me makie fire fire good make metal hot just like that because I can tend to be a bit of an ashole
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Skarzs the Cave Troll
Heh.
Will you show pictures of your progress, Massive?
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MassiveEffect
Oh yes I plan on documenting everything
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MassiveEffect
Now a question for you guys/gals what is you refractory thickness?
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jmccustomknives
My main forge is 2 layers of kao-wool, hard firebrick/castable bottom, 4" soft firebrick sides, 2" soft brick top.  Its a naturally aspirated 2 burner and can get hot enough to red short 52100, whatever temp that is.

Rule #10;  "I can make that" translates to; "I'm to cheap to buy it new."

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MassiveEffect
How thick is your bottom?
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jmccustomknives
A layer of wool, 1" fire brick 1/2 of castable.

Rule #10;  "I can make that" translates to; "I'm to cheap to buy it new."

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MassiveEffect
So in total about 3in to about 4in max
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jmccustomknives
About 3" in total, that's all the room the box will give me.  The last time I rebuilt after a year of use the borax had ate through the castable, through the firebrick, the kaowool gets ate like water does cotton candy leaving a nice pool of solidified flux in the bottom.  No matter how thick, if you are forge welding make it easy to repair.

Rule #10;  "I can make that" translates to; "I'm to cheap to buy it new."

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MassiveEffect
Here are the specs as of design right now the main chamber is going to be 17000 cubic inches, 1 foot long 10in pipe in-between the burn box and the main chamber with the refractory in it will make it 4in diameter. The burn box will have about 4000 cubic inches of area with the refractory in place
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Metalmelt
I hope you mean 1700 cu in, you would need a lot of fuel to heat over 100 sq ft. I missed my calculations on the refractory I needed because I used the diameter instead of radius in the formula. Had twice what I needed.
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MassiveEffect
Damn yea inches lol
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MassiveEffect
Could you imagine the cost of making a 100sq foot room out of stainless steel 16g
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MassiveEffect
And just read what u posted again yes in full forge mode the size is 17000 cubic inches


I/D
Overall length =44 3/8
W:20
L:28 1/8

O/D
Overall Length = 45 5/8
Duct W=20 5/16
Duct L= 26 1/4
It is a 10g Duct with a 1/4 flange on it


With a 3 in refractory in it area calculation with that in mind comes out roughly to be 17000
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Metalmelt
OK, I'm off some where and your dimensions aren't making sense to me. So, carry on.

One cubic foot is 1728 square inches. 17000 divided by 1728 is 9.84 cu ft.
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MassiveEffect
Look at the pictures at the top of this post
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